Is This Program Even Possible

jsjohnsmith333777

I'm saying sorry in advance if this is not the correct place to ask a question but it seemed the most logical to me. I will be the first to admit that I am not a techie in a technical sense (all pun intended) but I do believe my background in philosophy and logic have brought me to thinking about what one of my tech friends has called "a high-level and advance IT question". My good friend also told me nothing is impossible to create in software, you just need to find the right Baby genius to build it So I find myself here. [For clarity reasons I am going to use two program examples that best fit what I am envisioning: They are Google Chrome web browser and Google Chromium OS] Here we go.

It seems to me that Chrome web browser and Chromium OS essentially do the same thing its just one works as a program within an operating system and the other works as a stand alone Operating system in itself. Further more they are two separate programs. My question is is it even possible to create software that works as a program (Chrome web browser) within an operating system (Mac, Windows 7, Linux) but the SAME program can also be used as a stripped down operating system THAT ONLY ACCESSES THE INTERNET (Chromium OS) on that same computer with the Mac, Windows 7 or Linux on it. Essentially its combining a program like Chrome web browser and Chromium OS into one and changes the Hierarchy relationship between the two. That means using the program as a stripped down Operating system that accesses the internet is a secondary function and using it as a program that accesses the internet within a local operating system is the primary function.

Once again I use Chrome Web browser and Chromium OS because they are the best examples of the technology that is already out there. And I cannot stress this enough. The program I am talking about is ONE program, not two. So in theory this program would combine a web browser and an OS but the browser is the main function and the OS option is a secondary function that allows your computer to only access the internet through the program. I believe there are major benefits to a program that could be created like this if it has not been already. This is what I am trying to create or have someone or some people help me create it.

If you do not believe creating this is possible I would sincerely like to know why not and for what reasons. Also if anything is not clear please ask questions as obviously I am not a techie if it has not shown already. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on the idea and or questions. I look forward to dialogue and interaction on this subject. Thank you for reading.

jsjohnsmith333777

By the way I'm asking this with Chromium because it was built using the Linux Kernel.

marc

I don't see why not this could be done, just that...what would be the point of doing so?

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

Thank you Marc for the reply. If you could just elaborate a little as to why you see no problem with this type of program being built. That would be helpful. The biggest point I assume of building a program like this is making Internet use even faster than it is now. I'm just assuming this though I do not know enough about Operating Systems and their specific functions. But going off of that assumption faster Internet usage would mean playing online games and doing online activities would be a greater experience.

I'm pretty sure there would be even more benefits to having a program like this but as I said I don't know enough right now.

marc

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

Thank you Marc for the reply. If you could just elaborate a little as to why you see no problem with this type of program being built. That would be helpful. The biggest point I assume of building a program like this is making Internet use even faster than it is now. I'm just assuming this though I do not know enough about Operating Systems and their specific functions. But going off of that assumption faster Internet usage would mean playing online games and doing online activities would be a greater experience.

I'm pretty sure there would be even more benefits to having a program like this but as I said I don't know enough right now.

Well, the OS main functionallity is to talk to the *hardware*. It's a comunication layer between the apps/software and the hardware itself.

You could code an OS that could detect if it needs to do that work (chromeOS) or just run as an application (chromium). However, I see no point in doing that.

Internet speed? No way. Today's bottlenecks are *NOT* the OS but the communications themselves. Ya know, it takes time for a signal to go from Tokio to Paris... and that takes like a hundred time more that you could potentially win from writing an specific OS system.

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

Thank you Marc for the reply. If you could just elaborate a little as to why you see no problem with this type of program being built. That would be helpful. The biggest point I assume of building a program like this is making Internet use even faster than it is now. I'm just assuming this though I do not know enough about Operating Systems and their specific functions. But going off of that assumption faster Internet usage would mean playing online games and doing online activities would be a greater experience.

I'm pretty sure there would be even more benefits to having a program like this but as I said I don't know enough right now.

Well, the OS main functionallity is to talk to the *hardware*. It's a comunication layer between the apps/software and the hardware itself.

You could code an OS that could detect if it needs to do that work (chromeOS) or just run as an application (chromium). However, I see no point in doing that.

Internet speed? No way. Today's bottlenecks are *NOT* the OS but the communications themselves. Ya know, it takes time for a signal to go from Tokio to Paris... and that takes like a hundred time more that you could potentially win from writing an specific OS system.

Regards

Thank you for the reply, I appreciate your feed back. I think the main thing to remember is that this is not technically an OS. Its an entirely new program that has two main functions. One is to access the Internet in a traditional Operating System and Two is to access the Internet without the traditional Operating System needing to be loaded.

I guess I'm not really understanding why a program that does not load a traditional OS but only accesses the internet would not be beneficial? I assume the things that effect Internet speed and web experience are tied to hardware and software resources on a computer. If your computer only has to load this one program with out doing all the other booting junk to get to the Internet why wouldn't that make Internet usage and web activities faster? Especially for video games and MMOs online?

marc

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

I guess I'm not really understanding why a program that does not load a traditional OS but only accesses the internet would not be beneficial? I assume the things that effect Internet speed and web experience are tied to hardware and software resources on a computer. If your computer only has to load this one program with out doing all the other booting junk to get to the Internet why wouldn't that make Internet usage and web activities faster? Especially for video games and MMOs online?

The key thing is that it *CANNOT* access internet without an OS. Either being itself or having one below it

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

I guess I'm not really understanding why a program that does not load a traditional OS but only accesses the internet would not be beneficial? I assume the things that effect Internet speed and web experience are tied to hardware and software resources on a computer. If your computer only has to load this one program with out doing all the other booting junk to get to the Internet why wouldn't that make Internet usage and web activities faster? Especially for video games and MMOs online?

The key thing is that it *CANNOT* access internet without an OS. Either being itself or having one below it

Regards

Interesting. So I guess my question now is what exactly allows an OS to access the Internet? Hardware and Software parts? Because it seems to me if the only purpose to access the Internet the the software drivers and or resources could be taken care of on our end of the servers and the Hardware components become the real focus. I'm sure there are other tasks and resources that a traditional OS does that has nothing to do with getting on the Internet. I mean isn't that what Google Chromium is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTFfl7AjNfI&feature=relmfu

marc

Hardware <---> OS <----> Apps

The browser wants to go to internet, so it asks the OS to do so who, then, talks to the hardware. Then the hardware sends signals (electrical,optical, whatever...) and "connects" to internet

You *NEED* something to talk to the hardware, and that's the OS work. If you don't have an OS you *CANNOT* use anything at all.

If the apps is talking to the hardware directly it's functioning as an OS itself.

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

Hardware <---> OS <----> Apps

The browser wants to go to internet, so it asks the OS to do so who, then, talks to the hardware. Then the hardware sends signals (electrical,optical, whatever...) and "connects" to internet

You *NEED* something to talk to the hardware, and that's the OS work. If you don't have an OS you *CANNOT* use anything at all.

If the apps is talking to the hardware directly it's functioning as an OS itself.

YES! Great response Marc! This is what I mean! So are you saying a browser or App that works inside a traditional OS (in theory) can be equipped to talk to hardware directly? Basically having the OPTION to cut out the "middle man". [App=OS=Internet to App=Internet].

And lastly the more important question is would having an App=Internet actually make using the Internet and doing web activities faster? For instance playing high graphic video games with little lag or doing multiple activities at once? Thanks again Marc for the response I appreciate it.

marc

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

marc wrote:

Hardware <---> OS <----> Apps

The browser wants to go to internet, so it asks the OS to do so who, then, talks to the hardware. Then the hardware sends signals (electrical,optical, whatever...) and "connects" to internet

You *NEED* something to talk to the hardware, and that's the OS work. If you don't have an OS you *CANNOT* use anything at all.

If the apps is talking to the hardware directly it's functioning as an OS itself.

YES! Great response Marc! This is what I mean! So are you saying a browser or App that works inside a traditional OS (in theory) can be equipped to talk to hardware directly? Basically having the OPTION to cut out the "middle man". [App=OS=Internet to App=Internet].

And lastly the more important question is would having an App=Internet actually make using the Internet and doing web activities faster? For instance playing high graphic video games with little lag or doing multiple activities at once? Thanks again Marc for the response I appreciate it.

Of course you could do that:

1- remove the OS
2- Your app talks to the hardware
3- Your app *IS* an OS <---- see the thing?

As I've already said, you wouldn't make much of a difference in the actual internet because the real problem is not in the computers but in the communication mechanisms we use (phone lines, wifi, etc).

By building another OS you could change some things like those the video mentions, the way the hardware is initialized is a perfect example of that. But if you do that, you lose other things the OS was providing!

Although I must admit it could be interesting for some special cases like a tablet or small embedded os in a tv connectet to internet.... there are posibilites.

For a general purpose computer? My humble opinion is that it wouldn't make much sense

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

marc wrote:

Hardware <---> OS <----> Apps

The browser wants to go to internet, so it asks the OS to do so who, then, talks to the hardware. Then the hardware sends signals (electrical,optical, whatever...) and "connects" to internet

You *NEED* something to talk to the hardware, and that's the OS work. If you don't have an OS you *CANNOT* use anything at all.

If the apps is talking to the hardware directly it's functioning as an OS itself.

YES! Great response Marc! This is what I mean! So are you saying a browser or App that works inside a traditional OS (in theory) can be equipped to talk to hardware directly? Basically having the OPTION to cut out the "middle man". [App=OS=Internet to App=Internet].

And lastly the more important question is would having an App=Internet actually make using the Internet and doing web activities faster? For instance playing high graphic video games with little lag or doing multiple activities at once? Thanks again Marc for the response I appreciate it.

Of course you could do that:

1- remove the OS
2- Your app talks to the hardware
3- Your app *IS* an OS <---- see the thing?

As I've already said, you wouldn't make much of a difference in the actual internet because the real problem is not in the computers but in the communication mechanisms we use (phone lines, wifi, etc).

By building another OS you could change some things like those the video mentions, the way the hardware is initialized is a perfect example of that. But if you do that, you lose other things the OS was providing!

Although I must admit it could be interesting for some special cases like a tablet or small embedded os in a tv connectet to internet.... there are posibilites.

For a general purpose computer? My humble opinion is that it wouldn't make much sense

Regards

I very much appreciate your opinion Marc so please do not hold back on your thoughts. It is always great to discuss issues as these and get all possibilties and issues on the table . First I want to say that this is not an OS so there would be no need to remove the traditional OS. And just secondly that this function would be a secondary function, not a primary one.

Could an App still talk to the hardware as you state in number 2 with both of my points in mind? And wouldn't the App be a hybrid instead of what you state in number 3?

Also would another special case be gaming online? Or a 3rd world or 2nd world country where people can not afford the luxuries that we have but could use at least a semi OS that could connect any hardware to the Internet? Remember there are many apps nowadays that are Internet based that are taking over most of the things that local apps and programs use to do. People that do not have money could benefit from this kind of platform.

marc

Could an App still talk to the hardware as you state in number 2 with both of my points in mind? And wouldn't the App be a hybrid instead of what you state in number 3?

It could be possible although I doubt it would work with any of the OSs that we have already. They are not ready for two softwares (be it OS, APPS or whatever) to talk to hardware directly.

That would be a real mess :S

Besides, there's no point in having two OSs running at the same time (if your apps is talking to the hardware it is becoming and OS!!!!).

Also would another special case be gaming online? Or a 3rd world or 2nd world country where people can not afford the luxuries that we have but could use at least a semi OS that could connect any hardware to the Internet?

This already exists: linux does all that (or freebsd...)

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

Could an App still talk to the hardware as you state in number 2 with both of my points in mind? And wouldn't the App be a hybrid instead of what you state in number 3?

It could be possible although I doubt it would work with any of the OSs that we have already. They are not ready for two softwares (be it OS, APPS or whatever) to talk to hardware directly.

That would be a real mess :S

Besides, there's no point in having two OSs running at the same time (if your apps is talking to the hardware it is becoming and OS!!!!).

Also would another special case be gaming online? Or a 3rd world or 2nd world country where people can not afford the luxuries that we have but could use at least a semi OS that could connect any hardware to the Internet?

This already exists: linux does all that (or freebsd...)

Regards

The second function of the App I'm talking about would not be running two OSs. That is the whole point of that function. To connect to the Internet without having to load the traditional OS. So only the program is talking to the Hardware with the second function. Do you still believe it would be a mess?

And it is true for Linux being the 2nd and 3rd world option but is it really a viable option? Its not a commercial product. More of a hobbyist platform. They need a commercial product that is still free. I feel like I have gained a lot of knowledge from our conversation. Thank you Marc.

marc

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

The second function of the App I'm talking about would not be running two OSs. That is the whole point of that function. To connect to the Internet without having to load the traditional OS. So only the program is talking to the Hardware with the second function. Do you still believe it would be a mess?

This has already been done. There are some laptops that can boot into a specially prepared linux environment for easy internet connection that can boot within two seconds (or less)

Unfortunately I don't have any links :S

Then again, like for the gazillion time, if you App is talking to the hardware IT BECOMES AN OS.

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

The second function of the App I'm talking about would not be running two OSs. That is the whole point of that function. To connect to the Internet without having to load the traditional OS. So only the program is talking to the Hardware with the second function. Do you still believe it would be a mess?

This has already been done. There are some laptops that can boot into a specially prepared linux environment for easy internet connection that can boot within two seconds (or less)

Unfortunately I don't have any links :S

Then again, like for the gazillion time, if you App is talking to the hardware IT BECOMES AN OS.

Regards

Hey Marc that sounds great! Can you please please PLEASE help me find that link? And I will agree with you. It does become an OS lol But please sir I would really appreciate it if you could find a link, article, wiki, or anything to start me on the path of researching this type of function you have stated. Thanks again for this conversation I very much appreciate it.

jsjohnsmith333777

marc wrote:

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

The second function of the App I'm talking about would not be running two OSs. That is the whole point of that function. To connect to the Internet without having to load the traditional OS. So only the program is talking to the Hardware with the second function. Do you still believe it would be a mess?

This has already been done. There are some laptops that can boot into a specially prepared linux environment for easy internet connection that can boot within two seconds (or less)

Regards

Forgive me for being a tad bit nit picky. But you said this special linux environment provided easy internet connection in terms of the booting process BUT did it provide for a better or faster web experience? I guess I'm asking were there any other advantages to this type of Linux environment?

marc

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:

Forgive me for being a tad bit nit picky. But you said this special linux environment provided easy internet connection in terms of the booting process BUT did it provide for a better or faster web experience? I guess I'm asking were there any other advantages to this type of Linux environment?

No, you won't get a faster internet experience. I've already told you. You might save 1milisecond (and I'm being generous herer) but.... what's that against a load time of a page of 700ms?

The "bottleneck" in todays internet IS NOT THE USER's COMPUTER but the technologies used to communicate ( copper lines, wifis.... whatever!)

Regards

jsjohnsmith333777

Thank you Marc again. Did you ever find out about that special Linux environment?

asedt

jsjohnsmith333777 wrote:
And it is true for Linux being the 2nd and 3rd world option but is it really a viable option? Its not a commercial product. More of a hobbyist platform. They need a commercial product that is still free.

Thats not true, Linux (+GNU etc) is very much a commercial product. It has major market shares in super computers, embedded systems, servers and smartphones etc. so to call it a hobbyist platform is so wrong even when talking desktops. Just check out redhat. One most note that theres difference between open source, free (fsf definition) and cost free.

I don't get your idea, don't see the profit. One can make a dedicated surfing machine just by turning of unused services/daemons etc.

Probably not the best example ( "within 10 seconds" ) but here is a link of fast booting Linux, a lot of the small lightweight ones are fast to:
http://xpud.org/ (http://www.tuxradar.com/content/xpud-ultra-fast-booting-linux-flavour)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Linux_distribution


Edit:

See also:
https://meego.com/
(previous moblin.org : http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/04/intel-aims-for-2-second-boot-time-with-moblin-linux-platform.ars)

http://www.splashtop.com/ (very much a commercial product!!)

jsjohnsmith333777

Thank you Aron for you post. I will look at all that you have provided and get back to you. I was in no way trying to say Linux based products cannot become commercialized products but that Linux itself because of its association with open source and "free" is itself a commercial brand. Hope that makes things a little clearer. Again thank you and I will get back to this.